Winfred Yu
Interview (at WSOP-E in Rozvadov): October 27, 2020
How did the super high roller poker scene start for you?
I think the high roller tournament scene started about six or seven years ago, when I first took my groups of Chinese businessmen, VIPs, to go the Aussie Millions to experience their first world class, real tournament. At that time I think the highest buy in around the world was probably $25,000 or $50,000. When we were there, they had $100,000 or $250,000, which was unheard of at that time. Everybody is seeing wealthy Chinese businessmen, and they were not good at that time, for sure, so it becomes a very plus EV, a very juicy tournament, for all the pros to jump into. Suddenly there’s group of Hong Kong businessmen, or Chinese businessmen or Asian businessmen, they just learned the game. Either they like it or they don’t like it. When they like it, everyday when they are waking up they’re thinking about playing. And then after the cash games, they have a taste of the tournament, they feel the excitement, they feel the limelight. They are waiting for the next one. As we do the tournament tours: the EPT, to other poker tournaments, and they start making higher buy-ins for my groups to go in there because we did some private tournaments, or invitation tournaments in London or Manila. So people heard about it.
The high roller tournament scene had a very good couple of years. And then a lot of…poker players, as you know, they are either tournament players or they are cash game players. Very rarely are they like the Chinese, they play both. At certain tournaments, why we built the brand afterwards, why we built the brand Triton, because in certain tournaments you see people playing 90 minute levels or high value tournaments because most tournaments are set up for bigger buy-ins, you’ve got more chips, you’ve got more playing time. But more chips and more playing time, for my VIP customers, is such a disadvantage. Against the pros, they’ve got no shot. They realised that and they started dying down. They don’t have the patience, they don’t have the energy and they don’t have the skill to last three day four day events. So we take a shorter time limit per level, or we’re making the levels go a little bit faster, forcing the pros to gamble as the blinds go up. To gamble with the VIPs. It makes the skill level a lot closer. It’s more exciting for everybody and keeping more interest for amateurs or Asian players to join. That stirred up the scene pretty good.
What’s the main motivation of your VIPs when they play poker?
It’s not about the winning of the money. They’re playing such big cash games — the average games in my Macau poker room is $10,000/$20,000 Hong Kong blinds, or $20/$40, which is $1,500/$3,000 as my regular game. Or like $2,000/$4,000 US or euro, which you have to consider is one of the highest cash games regularly. So everybody comes to Macau. Actually a lot of pros, and I’m not mentioning any names, they go broke and go home. We change lives and putting a lot of poker pros to billionaires, for example Andrew Robl, Tom Dwan, also a few regulars who were in Macau. So the businessmen playing the cash games, they’re already experiencing $10 million per day swings, so the prize pool, if it doesn’t go to the $20 million or $30 million mark, it doesn’t excite them to spend three days. But also getting a title, or getting far in a tournament, the excitement of the final table, the limelight on the TV, it’s a big deal for them. They feel something they cannot buy. They feel like they can say, “OK, I lost a flip on the cash game table for 10 million, or five/six million” they don’t feel the pain, they don’t feel a thing. But so close to winning a trophy, they finally feel the pain. It’s not about throwing in the money. Everyone wants to improve their skill, so it becomes very interesting, poker.
Do they also enjoy playing against the best in the world?
I think it’s 50/50. Fifty percent of people really matters, the other 50 percent don’t know who they’re playing with. I think more and more people start to know the players and who are the good players. Beating the pros gives them an extra merit, it’s something to talk about. It’s more enjoyment for them, beating the pros. More and more — besides Richard Yong, Orpen and a few Chinese pros — you’ll hardly see any Chinese VIPs go deep. So as the short deck comes along, it does hype up the VIP scene again.
You predict another wave of interest?
Yes, and this wave of interest actually built Triton by killing a lot of hold’em games. You can see right now, even in the EPT or whatever, how many Chinese, even in my group that stills go to play, goes big in a tournament. Not much. Cash games they do. They just do not have the time and the patience to grind for two or three days. I see a lot of poker players are really in love with poker, not in love with gambling. But who’s going to come here to play a $25,000 or a $100,000, it’s the love of poker, the love or the dream, the love of winning a bracelet. You have to understand the poker culture, real poker lovers.
How many people have you brought to Rozvadov?
This time 10 to 12. Always in Manila, it’s much easier to get the Chinese VIPs to those. I think we run the Triton event averaging about 70 people. It’s about 70 to 80 buy-ins, averaging about 1 million to 2 million dollars Hong Kong, which is like 100/200 USD.
Do the businessmen know how important they are to the scene?
For a lot of them, it depends who’s hosting the tournament. When Triton is having an event, with Paul [Phua] and Richard [Yong]’s influence in the Asian poker market, you know you attract at least 10 to 20 people who will not go out somewhere else to play. And those people are going to buy in three or four bullets, which make Triton such a juicy tournaments, and we’ve built our names out of that.
I’ve built our brand out of PokerKings, which is up to about nine years now. I built Triton three/four years ago, is for Paul and Richard, they feel like they own it. They contributed in the poker market, especially in the high roller scene. I think they deserve their own home, and then their own followers.
Is it a fair characterisation of the super high roller world that it exists because of people making money in other pursuits, then losing it playing poker?
I think in a fair amount of ways, I would have to agree with it. Look at it. A lot of tournaments you go in and you can see, whether it’s in Vegas or a totally [inaudible] market, you don’t see anything bigger than $100K, even though they’ve scheduled it, they might not have enough players to take off. Everybody is looking at who’s in, who’s in. They look at the line-up. They don’t see…nobody making money in poker, for poker pros, is very difficult at this time. Playing online is so tough because most of the people who are still there are very good, or they have software that helps them. Playing live, not many people are willing to travel, with the high cost of travel and the uncertainty of the game. So it was kind of making the scene very dry in the western world. But that’s why people are moving into Macau, concentrating and following Asian poker players where they are, because they know there’s live money.
Does the average VIP care that he’s playing against people who are running their poker affairs like a business, with him as the creditor?
They do. Nowadays they learn about it more, so they know there are players they cannot beat. They are kind of selecting players now. Compared to five or six years ago. The smart Chinese businessmen are still in the scene. Really loose cannons, they probably say: “I cannot beat the game” or they play the Chinese only. “I’ll play with my own friends.” Instead they go into a casino and sit down and just putting millions of dollars on the table, you don’t see that anymore. Honestly my average game from $2,000/$4,000 US was kind of dropping to $200/$400 in the past three years.
In a tournament, they cannot choose who they play but in a high roller how many people are joining in a tournament. Maybe 50. And honestly, you will see probably 75 percent are pros, maybe even more. Normal cash-game grinders, or semi-pros in the western market, they look at that field and they are not going to join in. To play a multi re-entry $100,000 buy-in, it’s going to be bankroll killing. So I think a lot of pros, it doesn’t matter who’s in it, a lot of pros are skipping those. You see the same people all the time. Probably now with the tax and the changes of the laws in Germany, I’ve seen substantially less Germans. Good players are playing in the Asian tournaments.
What’s an ideal tournament for a businessman?
First of all they want a significant buy-in level. I don’t think they care about the number of players, as long as you’ve got three or four tables to start with. And not a very long playing period per day. It’s also when I schedule my tournaments and set my structures, because I’m a player and also an operator, so I know what the players want and how I feel at the tables. Even ifI paid for them, no one is going to play WSOP Main Event, and play 12 hours a day, 120 minutes level. They rather commit suicide than play.
Those kinds of things: shot-clock, that helps to cut down the skill level of the pros, speeding up the game. That will draw more players’ interest. Now we talk about the VIP scene, we talk about the interest level more than the money level. What keeps them coming is that it has to be interesting…and they can win. If you play ten times and you don’t win, I don’t think you still play that game.
Is it your job to keep the games going and keep players interested?
We are an operator, we are not a tournament brand. So my real goal and job is to open up as many poker rooms in profitable casinos, giving more and better selection and choice for poker players. And also this is my way of building the scene and keeping everybody’s interest levels. If everybody just come to the same casino, same poker tables, seeing the same eight guys waiting for them, they’re not coming. I don’t have the problem of keeping certain players alive because for the China market, they’ve got tons of those whales if I wanted to develop. So I will not be losing VIPs in some of my rooms, or for the Triton brand or the high roller brand dying down. It’s how we’re going to market it to them. What’s suitable to them. What is their excitement.
Where are you aiming your marketing?
I should not say baccarat, but high roller gaming scene, to offer poker to them as their new interest. Obviously somebody is not going to sit down and play if they have absolutely no clue about it. But nowadays with the poker scene in Asia, somehow they have touched it before. Or they have not played, but they have seen enough to have their interest. It’s difficult, but you know, having players, having junket rooms with poker tables, having high stakes poker games in there, right next to the baccarat tables. It always helps to develop baccarat players who just won millions of dollars, say: “Hey, I’ll take one buy-in sit down and try” and hook on to the game. But I’m not teaching them at the cash game, and then for the tournament scene it’s a far way to go. They have to travel, they understand the rules, they have to be restricted, be at their seat for so long. And then also for Chinese players, non smoking is killing. So it’s very difficult to do that. But as soon as things are slowing down, then short deck came in, which changed the whole Asian market. Now all the variable players, they don’t play hold’em any more because it’s boring. Just like when I come to Europe, everybody playing Omaha. Where is the hold’em game? Very small. Maybe I find like $2/$4 hold’em game. $5/$10 is like, wow. But PLO they have 100/200. Everyone just wants to gamble, fast, fast, fast, win some big money and go home happy. If I’m losing, I have a chance to chase. If I’m losing $2 million dollars, and then maybe I won’t get aces in two days! Then the interest level goes down.
How big would it be if one of the Asian players won this super high roller tournament bracelet? [In Rozvadov, happening alongside interview.]
Always having VIPs or well-known businessmen winning big poker tournaments always has a wave to kick up the next two or three tournaments, for six months or a year of the poker market. Because they say, “Shit if Paul [Phua] can win, I can win!” No I have to go and challenge for the next one. In the VIP poker community, because everybody is a multi-billionaire, they’re not fighting about how rich, who’s richer anymore. It’s about who has the better skill, who has the better performance, who learns this thing faster. That’s the interest level of the tournament. How they prove themselves.
Are there literally hundreds of businessmen who could find HK$1 million to play poker if they wanted?
Easy. But they just don’t want to go to a tournament, draw a table, sit down and say, “Oh, I’ve got eight pros waiting for me.” So they come to the Triton, because they feel that it’s fun, a lot of their own crowd is in there. We did not bend the rules or anything, but we created an atmosphere. We created house rules, we created the structure that the Chinese VIPs enjoy. I’m sure these kind of things that we create, a lot of Western VIPs, maybe Bill Perkins, all those guys will be interested in playing tournaments again. Because look at them, they don’t play tournaments any more. They only play the One Drop because of Guy [Laliberte]. Now they don’t play. How often do you see them wanting to jump in to play. Before, they like to play the WPT, the Five Diamonds, the Grand Finals. The Monte Carlos. A lot of celebrity type VIPs goes in to play. Now they don’t. They cannot beat the game, and it’s not interesting for them to play anymore because they go in they feel embarrassed being a fish.
Would you ever restrict pros from a tournament?
We try to create what’s fair. Your $1 million and my $1 million, what’s the difference? You cannot judge that a pro’s million dollars is not worth a million dollars. We were thinking that maybe the pros have to buy in a little bit more, like if men want to join a ladies’ event. Maybe. I’m not sure. But what I always do, if I do a semi-invitational, I will say: right, up to this period I will let all the amateurs register first. And then the pros can be registered, but capping the number of seats. Then they will have a draw for those seats. So everything is fair. It doesn’t mean who registers first gets the seat, but it’s very difficult how I can classify them as pros. Then they will say, “You’re favouring him, you’re not favouring me.” So I don’t want to go through that headache. Probably we will say, if someone is sponsored, of if they’re on a junket I know they’re a VIP.
Are the Asian businessmen backing pros?
Yeah, and not just in the Asian scene. I’m sure there are a lot of pros, a lot of millionaires, a lot of VIPs are backing them to play. Because they say, “If I lose two million dollars, I’ve got two horses in there, taking 20% or 30% of them, if they win I can make my losses back.” Their purpose is not to try to make money, but to cover my loss. To last me longer. I just want to have fun in there. I lost $2 million, but my horse win it back for me. I’m OK.
Have poker skills changed a lot?
One hundred percent. From where I come from, from Canada, the old school, the limit poker with Daniel [Negreanu] and all those times, compared to seeing all these changes from tournament plays, you know 3, 4x opening to 2.2 openings, 2.5 openings, all these different betting styles. And all these things come up, a lot of online kids’ systems seep into the game. And pros changing their styles. Everybody learn different tactics to beat the game. On that part, the pros are hiring…they’re not hiring, but the elite pros try to make friends with the VIPs. A lot of the time they’re not only looking for a backer, they want their boss to be competitive as well. So they are teaching them a lot of skills and answering questions, helping them to improve. Definitely with the short history of poker in Asia, they cannot compete with them yet. But you see a lot of very good Chinese or Asian are coming on top of the game. We will see. It’s a very interesting market, and it continues changing of the poker in Asia. I cannot tell you what’s the next step.
Do the VIPs worry that the pros are only their friends because they want their money?
They already know that they want their money. So people who have very good personalities, like Tom Dwan, like Mikita [Badziakouski], they become friends, they go hang out, they’re willing to answer questions to help them. A lot of pros say, “I’m helping you? You’re going to come and beat me next time.” Some pros will not be helping them with discussing hands. A lot of good personality pros, they say they get into the family. Not only that, they are about getting close to the VIPs, getting their nominated seats in the cash games. OK, let’s go play some poker. Of course, one guy, no matter how rich he is, he’s not going to play with seven pros. But he can bring two guys, having fun, if there’s some hands I can ask him. They don’t mind to bring them to some of their friends’ games. They arrange four or five VIPs and two or three pros get in. It’s fine. So my job is how to balance the game. Some people call me, say: “I’m coming to Macau next Friday, arrange x, x, x games for me. These are the stakes I want to play. So my game is almost guarantee, it depends who’s in Macau, what’s the stakes. Mostly 30 percent, 25 percent pros, I won’t put more than that. Just to keep the interest levels of the VIPs.
SELECTED OTHER INTERVIEWS: Adrian Mateos, Charlie Carrel, Daniel Negreanu, Dominik Nitsche, Erik Seidel, Fedor Holz, Jason Koon, Justin Bonomo and Stephen Chidwick.
